Curse

The Ernada · Mar 28, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

I also don't like the way it sounds right now. It really does sound too much like a button mashing deal where combos happen if you button mash in the right order. I much prefer the way things are, where builds are effective based on their synergy with each other.

No matter what though, I'll give it a try. I really hope we really are overreacting though.

EDIT: Ok I just read Lyra's post about skills getting better after long periods of use. I'm not sure what to think of that until I get more details. In Ultima Online, you had the same system but no level system. Swinging your axe over and over again improved your axe skills but it was fine because you had no levels to worry about. But in GW2, we have levels in addition to improving skills through repetitive use? Sounds scary.

EternalTempest · Mar 28, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

maybe... but can you name a good RPG game that doesnt take at least a little time to learn? I dont want another button masher... it would not be original or interesting.

@Tozen
you are right . it is vague at the moment...it just sounds fishy...

I just hope we dont have #1. or #5 from your list

Kinda, but doing the reverse

Valkerye Profile - SquareEnix (original PSOne)

Brilliant hybrid Action/RPG with elements of training npc's and sending them off - meeting the demand of Odin and the war at the cost of losing experienced players in your party having to take low levels in to zones and surving. Mean while there is a "countdown" then ends the game when as you do "turns" in the game. Send the wrong skill characters odin starts losing the war (as turns go on), and the types he 'wants" changes as time goes on so you have a window of opportunity.

Have to play / muddle your way through 1/3 of the game before you get a complete grasp on how to do it.... then your screwed and should restart.

The "current" newest game PS2 in the series has recruitment but more standard linear plot line and no "count down timers" / do not lose your people your recruit. That, and at the start it doesn't even expose you to that system where you learn the basics. Your actually fighting Odin and another Valkerye

clawofcrimson · Mar 28, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Kinda, but doing the reverse

Valkerye Profile - SquareEnix (original PSOne)

um.... i had to go look up the website just to know what the heck you were talking about.... besides the good points in that game are far from traditional MMORPG.

even though it sounds pretty cool

Onarik Amrak · Mar 28, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

The Ernada · Mar 28, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

And yet...isnt using a skill while jumping to have a different effect a fighting game mechanic? Tell me that I'm wrong. What RPG has that type of gameplay?

clawofcrimson · Mar 28, 2007, 07:56 PM // 19:56

he specifically adresses the need to read complex skill descriptions... players will not need to read skill descriptions??? how can that mean that nothing will change exept when and where you will use the skill?

Onarik Amrak · Mar 28, 2007, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

And yet...isnt using a skill while jumping to have a different effect a fighting game mechanic? Tell me that I'm wrong. What RPG has that type of gameplay?

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

EternalTempest · Mar 28, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

Jade Empire too

The Ernada · Mar 28, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head. Gothic 3 and Oblivion.

Those are not traditional RPGs. Those are very great RPGs with heavy FPS elements. I dont mind games like those having twitch based gameplay.

However, I dont see how you can deny a skill having a different effect while jumping is NOT a fighting game mechanic. It might not necessarily be a bad thing but our current skill system was fine. I dont see why twitch based elements needed to be put in.

Sorry but if you want to discuss things, let's be honest and call things for what they are. Jumping + using a skill for a different effect IS a button mashing mechanic.

Darksun · Mar 28, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

I think you're all over-analysing the quote. All I think he meant is that jumping while using a skill would have a different effect than standing and using it. Where does it mention button mashing and 3D fightert-type mechanics? In the PCGamer article it was very clear they're not going to implement twitch reaction style fighting or anything like that. This is an R P G.

QFT!
It just sounds like they want the game more sandbox. More open, more interaction with the world. More options. But not necessarily more complicated. I'm excited to hear more. ANET knows what they are doing.

Onarik Amrak · Mar 28, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

Jade Empire too

How could I forget Jade Empire! It is one of my favourite games of all time!

I suppose you're right in that Gothic 3 and Oblivion are sort of hybrid games. I just don't see jumping and attacking as a fighting game mechanic per se... I mean in Mario you could jump and throw a fireball and the trajectory would be different. Maybe I just have an issue with people referring to this mechanic in a very negative way.

clawofcrimson · Mar 28, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

O'Brien explained, you don't want to have to read a bunch of skill descriptions, you want to run around and jump and swing, so that's what you'll be able to do in Guild Wars 2. ...

how can you read that and not think button mashing? I am not over analysing... I am simply saying that this sounds alot like a 'dumbing' down of the perfectly fine system they already have.

you cannot 'swing' currently in GW.... so? what does that mean? a swing button? ...I certainly hope not. (I am thinking of swinging a weapon...not swinging from a tree...which is a possibility...but kinda weird to think about...like a bunch of tarzan asuras =p )

btw.. (I would not mind a Jade Empire type of play..really..that was a great game...just very very different from the original GW)
http://jade.bioware.com/specialedition/gallery.html

The Ernada · Mar 28, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

How could I forget Jade Empire! It is one of my favourite games of all time!

I suppose you're right in that Gothic 3 and Oblivion are sort of hybrid games. I just don't see jumping and attacking as a fighting game mechanic per se... I mean in Mario you could jump and throw a fireball and the trajectory would be different. Maybe I just have an issue with people referring to this mechanic in a very negative way.

Haha. Sorry but you keep proving my point. Mario is very much a hand-eye coordination game. I'm not saying the mechanic is a bad thing since I DO play those types of games but GW has always been a "thinking man's" game because of how the skills and build system worked. I just think it would be a sad thing to see it replaced by twitch based gameplay.

But as I said before, the quote was too vague and there's too little information to know what's going on.

Sir Skullcrasher · Mar 28, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

I'll wait until we hear words from A-Net directly in regards to the new skill systems.

wongba · Mar 28, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

how is this game supposed to be the successor to gw again? defining what skills have what effects seems like a core aspect of the game. in a general way, it gives everybody access to the same information.

if u don't define what effects a skill has, then the only way for ppl to know for sure is to look it up on guildwiki2 or something where ppl have conducted extensive testing w/ every conceivable combination of weapon/armor/condition/buff/hex/skill use/physical action or do it urself. given the time it took to test and work out dmg equations it seems insane to base your entire skill system on something that isn't concretely defined.

if they are really basing their system philosophically on emergent complexity, it's difficult to see how anyone except those w/ fantastic iq can understand what will occur. it seems to indicate that even the developers won't have but a general notion of all the consequences of using a certain skill in a certain situation. w/ all the skills in the 3 gw chapters, and well defined skill effects, ppl still get away w/ horribly imbalanced builds. how much worse will it be if the consequences aren't defined?

i know i'm speculating from some very vague descriptions, but the wording "emergent" and "complexity" is pretty well used. see the wikipedia entry on emergence:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

Bryant Again · Mar 28, 2007, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Hm. It depends.

I'm with Ernada that I liked the 8 skills system, and making a build that syngergized with the group.

However, at this moment, it doesn't sound like Guild Wars 2 is going to be a pretty big party-based game. So in PvE, this actually sounds fun. Button Combos = Old School = Win.

It is way to vague to tell at this moment. Firstly, because I hardly have a clue what O'Brien is saying, and secondly we have no idea how PvP works yet.

So yes, I'd like to wait until I hear more.

clawofcrimson · Mar 28, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

.However, at this moment, it doesn't sound like Guild Wars 2 is going to be a pretty big party-based game. So in PvE, this actually sounds fun. Button Combos = Old School = Win.

but what about pvp?

I like not having to take a full party in pve...but in pvp thats what it is all about. Good builds>button Combos

no more 'top guild' team builds?? just running around killing things like a big 'Battle toads' Alliance battle. lol

Bryant Again · Mar 28, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

What about PvP? I'm wondering how this would work in a PvP setting. It seems like it could be more frantic than it already is.

I also thought, what kind of "combos" would be fun for a ranger? The only thing that pops into mind is being able to actually have to aim the bow.

Zinger314 · Mar 28, 2007, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What about PvP? I'm wondering how this would work in a PvP setting. It seems like it could be more frantic than it already is.

Think about World PvP instead. This "emergent complexity" system will screw that up.

My philosophy is that if you can manage to subscribe and install an MMO correctly, you can understand any instructions. The fact that the ArenaNet devs want to make the game easier to comprehend is an insult. Seriously. We're not idiots.

This is the same direction that SWG: NGE took. And most of us know how that ended.

Then again, ArenaNet constantly tries to make GW idiotproof. I still never understood why they added indicators in LA/Kaineng/Kamadan to tell you how to access other continents...

MSecorsky · Mar 28, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

No matter what degree of idiot-proofing you do, there will always come a bigger idiot to challenge it.